tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post7236994248388649145..comments2024-02-11T03:50:53.613-05:00Comments on Counterlight's Peculiars: DisproportionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-41183558222668578612011-06-03T14:06:14.798-04:002011-06-03T14:06:14.798-04:00The Thinking Anglicans post you quote is Christoph...The Thinking Anglicans post you quote is Christopher Seitz of the "Anglican Communion Institute" (one of convicted felon Don Armstrong's ex-pensioners - remember the "three guys and a website" thing as they dived for cover in the wake of that scandal?) in concern-troll mode, trying to muddy the waters at TA, using the dialectics of a past generation. It's not working and he's not worth bothering about.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-90154604173342567002011-06-03T01:10:42.833-04:002011-06-03T01:10:42.833-04:00In a pluralistic society, we've learned to giv...In a pluralistic society, we've learned to give respect to all sincere views. The right-wing doesn't just abuse this convention, they exploit it. William Temple, later Archbishop of Canterbury, observed in a 1914 lecture given in NYC that it's impossible to distinguish a deep religious conviction from a mere prejudice -- neither rests on evidence.Murdoch Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10584498192562407670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-2501752719881082852011-06-03T00:58:28.146-04:002011-06-03T00:58:28.146-04:00Mark, I would have posted again agreeing with you ...Mark, I would have posted again agreeing with you more, but I had to go out. The Internet was full of sickening misinformation after I left Counterlight -- gay chaplains are going to commit genocide on straight Christian soldiers, same-sex marriage will result in recruiting grade-schoolers to be gay -- anti-gays get to lie constantly, misrepresent reality, and then accuse gays of being intolerant of their bigotry. It is to wretch.<br /><br />I don't think our side is guilty of self-loathing, more we're the good kids who stay out of the spotlight to avoid trouble. (Is our president the nice black kid who never causes any trouble? Same syndrome.) We're too polite to contradict an idiot directly. We're nice, the bigots are not. <br /><br />The bigots operate from a long-established paradigm of privilege; feminists and gays challenge that supremacy. Their coherent story is under assault, and the fact that it's under assault by evidence that they're wrong only increases their sense of injustice and resentment. Feelings they project on us. <br /><br />Commenters on mainstream religious sites like The Episcopal Café regularly dismiss calls for more fact- and history-based faith by touting the wonders of intuition and deriding mere scientific views as impoverished, lacking in a sense of glory. Facts take backseat to a wonderful STORY. But how is one story to be preferred to another story if it's all feeling and no evidence? I think you're right -- with all the lies and deliberate misinformation filling the air, it's about time to stop being polite and to excoriate willful, malicious ignorance for what it is.Murdoch Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10584498192562407670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-10212624990331530162011-06-02T23:39:58.995-04:002011-06-02T23:39:58.995-04:00You misunderstand; I don't want to deny them ...You misunderstand; I don't want to deny them the right to express themselves in a public forum, rather I'm tired - sick to death, in fact - of the idolatry of "tolerance" that allows abusive views to be published and denies the right to respond with the level of anger and sheer <i>truth</i> warranted out of fear of - and it is nothing else - being seen as mean to our enemies. The result is not "fair play" for our enemies, but a craven, scraping and bowing to them at our expense. <br /><br /><b>That</b> attitude is a betrayal of our trust in those representing us in those public forums. <br /><br />I can also argue that tolerance is not an absolute. It simply isn't, and, if that's what we're basing our claims on, then <i>we</i> are in the wrong. I will not tolerate someone abusing someone else in my home, or my blog, or my workplace, for that matter. These views, placed in a blog in which gays are certain to see them is abuse. You can't argue, on one hand, that words have power and do damage and on the other that we're so tough and our cause so righteous we won't be hurt by a few words! A thing cannot be its opposite. <br /><br />I am rather passionate about this because I see in it an element of self-loathing on the part of our spokespeople and community leaders - that we have to somehow <i>earn</i> the right to speak up in kind, to <i>earn</i> the right to shout down lies and abuse. Moreso, I'm a lifelong Southerner so I've seen this in the arena of race relations, and it <b>does</b> hurt your cause - it tells the bully you're beaten down and will back down when those people represent you.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-91605078456340873832011-06-02T15:27:43.135-04:002011-06-02T15:27:43.135-04:00Mark, agreed that reality-based people (there ARE ...Mark, agreed that reality-based people (there ARE gay people in the world) must push back against those still peddling superseded world views. But it wasn't long ago that pro-gay views were deemed too objectionable to publish, or even to mention. Progressives DEPEND on free speech; we can't deny it to our critics. Still, the earth is not flat and humans aren't male or female but develop along a female-male continuum. C. Seitz speaks confidently from a long-established and socially enforced paradigm; liberal criticism seems frivolous and self-indulgent to his tribe. People who find themselves living other paradigms know better. Still, we won't shut down established but erroneous world-views overnight. May take a decade more.Murdoch Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10584498192562407670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-62760447545035833122011-06-02T00:02:38.195-04:002011-06-02T00:02:38.195-04:00A great deal of the reason for pseudo-intellectual...A great deal of the reason for pseudo-intellectual diatribes like seitz's is the precise thing that MadPriest pointed out; liberals are too damned polite. Simon Sarmiento will allow anything to be said to, about, at liberals, gays, and gay-friendly folks and balk at simple truths like saying, "You folks can't tell the difference between two gay adults who are in love and someone committing murder or theft or raping a child, and that makes you simply wrong!" But their <i>equating</i> gays with thieves, murderers and pedophiles is just fine!<br /><br />We just can't be <i>mean</i> to them! (simper, whine, whine) They're just <i>misguided</i>! (simper, whine, simper) Please, brother homophobe, beat me some more!!!<br /><br />It's not just there. It's pretty much all across the so-called "liberal" blogosphere and in the so-called "liberal" leadership in real life, and it's a disgrace. It's a sick, masochistic self-loathing that masquerades as "tolerance," and its backlash, the unfortunate poisonous outcome it the denigration and rage shown to those of us who point it out. Oh, "liberals" can get intolerant <i>then</i>, believe me! <br /><br />I say, either stand up and push back or back down and stop pretending to lead.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-57486835683161628302011-06-01T20:24:35.725-04:002011-06-01T20:24:35.725-04:00It seems to me that a God we call "father&quo...<i>It seems to me that a God we call "father" (that Jesus called "abba" or "daddy") would not be this way at all. He wouldn't be an exam proctor or a morals cop, He'd be a parent.</i><br /><br />How does that Country song go?<br /><br />[para. from memory---probably when I lived in Country land in Central PA in the 90s]<br /><br />"A daddy's love isn't for sometimes<br />It's a love without end, Amen."JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-5566753348138428562011-06-01T19:31:39.888-04:002011-06-01T19:31:39.888-04:00Our best is all that any of us can do. I'm su...Our best is all that any of us can do. I'm sure your children, now with children of their own, would agree.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-27720722780075738632011-06-01T19:29:12.771-04:002011-06-01T19:29:12.771-04:00Counterlight, I made mistakes in parenting, but I ...Counterlight, I made mistakes in parenting, but I did my best, and I hope my children knew and know that I love themJune Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-10113016792673288742011-06-01T19:26:32.220-04:002011-06-01T19:26:32.220-04:00I meant to add that I agree with your description ...I meant to add that I agree with your description of the attributes of a loving God. We are driving hundreds of thousands of young people away from the church with our arguments about same-sexuality and gender. For the majority of the younger generations, same-sexuality and women and gay clergy are non-issues. They look at the older generations and their quarrels and the focus on who's having sex with whom in wonder and are repelled by what they see and hear. Can we blame them? That's no way to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-34975738912739433772011-06-01T19:14:32.133-04:002011-06-01T19:14:32.133-04:00It also seems to me that you were a very good pare...It also seems to me that you were a very good parent to your own children.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-84820034887316649612011-06-01T19:08:53.342-04:002011-06-01T19:08:53.342-04:00Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think th...Perhaps I should have been more clear. I think the analogy is loving parents, which we are all entitled to have whether we have them or not. <br />It seems to me that your grandparents, and the parents of your friends, stepped in and played that role for you.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-41929534760787630522011-06-01T19:03:35.331-04:002011-06-01T19:03:35.331-04:00What in heaven's name do gay-straight alliance...What in heaven's name do gay-straight alliances in schools have to do with sex in prisons? The "Christian" homophobes often use the scare tactics of comparing two quite dissimilar situations to stir up fear and loathing against GLTB persons. It's despicable.<br /><br />Doug, I'm glad you had loving parents who, though not perfect, parented you well. However, your analogy of God to parents breaks down for those of us with one or two abusive parents, whom we knew did not have our best interests at heart. We'd have to think of TV shows or, as I did, of my grandparents or of the parents of my good friend who permitted me to spend a good deal of time at their house, to make the analogy work.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.com