tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post8517947628289464927..comments2024-02-11T03:50:53.613-05:00Comments on Counterlight's Peculiars: AtheismUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-73791793327386537172012-01-09T23:32:45.920-05:002012-01-09T23:32:45.920-05:00I invite a dialogue hereI invite a dialogue hereAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15184519902457118192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-13270280452514616432012-01-09T23:31:51.079-05:002012-01-09T23:31:51.079-05:00It is large and untouchedIt is large and untouchedAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15184519902457118192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-49368812480952353912012-01-09T23:30:48.045-05:002012-01-09T23:30:48.045-05:00I have a canvas for youI have a canvas for youAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15184519902457118192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-40864999243506572792011-05-17T14:32:14.055-04:002011-05-17T14:32:14.055-04:00I agree with John Gray myself.I agree with John Gray myself.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-28400366459780875582011-05-17T13:15:19.731-04:002011-05-17T13:15:19.731-04:00Thank you Doug. I think of myself as one of the c...Thank you Doug. I think of myself as one of the community too! :-)<br /><br />Meanwhile, here is a good quote from <a href="http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-creationists-error.html" rel="nofollow">Andrew Sullivan's Blog:</a> from philosopher John Gray. I must read the whole interview. Seems a sensible view, and I see myself as that way. <br /><br /><i>"I'm not a believer, but I'm friendly to religion, partly because it goes with being human—it's an odd kind of humanism which is hostile to something which is so quintessentially human as religion." That said, "I'm very opposed to investing science with the needs and requirements of religion. I'm equally opposed to the tendency within religion, which exists in things like creationism and intelligent design, to turn religion into a kind of pseudo-science. If you go back to St. Augustine or before, to the Jewish scholars who talk about these issues, they never regard the Genesis story as a theory. Augustine says explicitly that it should not be interpreted explicitly, that it's a way of accessing truths which can't really be formulated by the human mind in any rational way. It's a way of accessing mysterious features which will remain mysterious. So it was always seen right up to the rise of modern science—as a myth, not a theory. What these creationists are doing is retreating, they're accepting the view of religion promoted by scientific enemies of religion, and saying, no, we have got science and it's better than your science. Complete error."</i>IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-13504282462229430142011-05-17T13:06:03.045-04:002011-05-17T13:06:03.045-04:00"Actually, I suspect that the "angry ath..."Actually, I suspect that the "angry atheists" that JCF writes about are likely to fit into that category, angry at what they have lost. And I wonder how many of them aren't really atheist, but just driven away and feeling deeply unwanted and hurt."<br />--A very insightful comment that is probably quite true.<br /><br />I went back and read your post again. I remember reading it before, and it seems to me that we are both making the same argument from 2 different ends.<br /><br />I wholeheartedly agree. The problem is neither religion nor atheism in themselves, but it's that addictive human need for certainty in a world that promises none that causes all the grief.<br /><br />Modernity has made religion rigid and defensive where once it was creative and exploratory (although, the 20th century was arguably the most creative period in Christian theology since the 5th century; but as we see now, church hierarchies are still trying to put that genie back into the bottle).<br /><br />It doesn't help that Christianity and Islam are both competing imperial religions all about conquest and expansion. The really striking thing is how much Christian and Muslim fundamentalists resemble each other. I've always said, the only real difference between ours and theirs is a shave.<br />Like JCF, and a whole lot of other Christians, I dream of a post-imperial Christianity making its way as one community among many, remaking its mission into something more priestly, pastoral, and ameliorative, and no longer exclusive but universal in its services.<br /><br />I've heard other atheists who, like you, never had faith to lose in the first place, for whom the whole religion and spirituality thing was never an issue. I don't want to change that. As I've said before, I don't believe that anyone can or should be argued into religious faith, and I think people should stop trying.<br /><br />I do think conversation between Christians and atheists can and should be mutually constructive instead of hostile. And that is true for conversations between all other religions and philosophical positions. The aim is not agreement, but some mutual understanding, and maybe some mutual influence and education. Epicurus and Nietzche both had decisive influences on religious thinking. At the same time, Nietzche's philosophy of the will would have been impossible without the very idea of the free will first articulated by Christian thinkers like St. Paul and St. Augustine. Would Marx's ideas have been possible without a long tradition of Jewish thought on matters of social justice, and without Jewish Apocalyptic tradition? I don't think so. Much has been made of the recent influence of Buddhism on some forms of Christianity, but there is a lot of influence in the other direction as well. Christianity had a very large influence on early Islam, especially upon Sufism, which goes unacknowledged by both sides.<br /><br />I want more of that.<br /><br />You may not think of yourself as Christian, IT, nor should you, but I will always think of you as one of our community.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-15454119133969453022011-05-17T10:13:58.446-04:002011-05-17T10:13:58.446-04:00Argh--typo-- Here's that link to FoJArgh--typo-- <a href="http://friends-of-jake.blogspot.com/2010/11/faith-through-prism.html" rel="nofollow">Here's that link to FoJ</a>IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-87353954323979590852011-05-17T10:13:56.861-04:002011-05-17T10:13:56.861-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-13345229595495943462011-05-17T10:11:57.425-04:002011-05-17T10:11:57.425-04:00It's a good essay so of course it's worth ...It's a good essay so of course it's worth it. :-)<br /><br />But if you suddenly lost faith, like a Graham Greene character, you'd <i> know</i> what you'd lost. So that's not quite accurate. Actually, I suspect that the "angry atheists" that JCF writes about are likely to fit into that category, angry at what they have lost. And I wonder how many of them aren't really atheist, but just driven away and feeling deeply unwanted and hurt.<br /><br />But what if you never had faith? WOuld you feel its absence? You would only know what you were missing, by what people around you said. If you were surrounded by fundagelicals, you probably wouldn't feel like you missed much. But if you were surrounded by deeply spiritual Episcopalians who described their encounters with God as something transcendent, the way falling in love is transcendent, you might feel differently. ;-)<br /><br />I can't will faith into being. It simply is a sense that's missing. I suspect that a subset of people just don't feel it; not unlike the subset who are left handed, or gay. I think about it more than most simply because I live amongst you all. My faithless friends (ouch ! ;-) don't think about it much at all.<br /><br /><A HREF='http://friends-of-jake.blogspot.com/2010/11/faith-through-prism.html">I wrote more about my thoughts </A> a few months ago at FoJ.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-67584618064953119082011-05-17T08:03:54.641-04:002011-05-17T08:03:54.641-04:00I don't think feeling "other" is wha...I don't think feeling "other" is what would bother me about the prospect of becoming atheist. I'm already that now (gay, artist, left-of-center, middle aged, religious, Texan in New York, New Yorker in Texas, figurative painter in a post-modern art world, definitely not in the prime marketing demographic) and I feel it every time I walk out the door. <br />I would feel the absence. I'd know what I was missing. And I can't imagine anything to fill the gap God would leave behind.<br /><br />I'll try, but I can't guarantee that I won't fall into the temptation to generalize from the particular again. We all do it.<br />On that score, Christians are their own worst enemies.<br /><br />I suppose all this was worth it just to know you better, IT.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-39610245602558771922011-05-16T18:25:27.139-04:002011-05-16T18:25:27.139-04:00Well, you did, mostly, and I liked it overall.
Wh...Well, you did, mostly, and I liked it overall.<br /><br />Where I took my modest umbridge was leading off a paragraph,<br /><i>I notice in my discussions with atheists that they try to demonstrate that I don’t need God, that there are plenty of things out there that can take His place</i> but don't you ever meet atheists who don't try to demonstrate that to you? I mean, what right have I to tell you what YOU need?<br /><br />and<br /><i>So many times, I listen to atheists (especially new ones) talk about what they don’t believe in, and it turns out that I don’t believe in a lot of those things either</i> does suggest that you are putting all atheists in one pot.<br /><br />It's hard to avoid generalizations, I know. JCF also kinda fell into that.<br /><br />Also I have a thought on this:<i>Genuine atheists see the absence of God and the transcendent as liberation. I doubt that I could see that absence as anything other than a loss. Atheists are happy to be atheists. </i> <br />I'm not sure that's true, in an existential sense, because to be a non-believer is to always be "other".Sometimes one feels the lack. My grandmother didn't think it was a good thing to stand out, and (dismayed at my scholastic accomplishment) assured me that I'd be much happier if I just were average.<br /><br /> Put it this way; I love my wife, but it does make our lives more difficult, and it would be nice in if we weren't so "other" . I'm not unhappy I'm gay, given BP, but I do feel all alone on the outside.<br /><br />If I were color blind, I think I would on occasion mourn that lack just because I don't see something that others do.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-59595147170514848352011-05-16T15:00:27.713-04:002011-05-16T15:00:27.713-04:00Oh dear, and I tried so hard to draw an explicit d...Oh dear, and I tried so hard to draw an explicit distinction between the Dawkins/ O'Hair school of atheism and all the rest.<br /><br />Apparently I failed.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-44619500671711542782011-05-16T14:56:18.117-04:002011-05-16T14:56:18.117-04:00Sigh. Using virulent anti-theists as your descrip...Sigh. Using virulent anti-theists as your descriptor for atheists, which is no different, really, than using Jerry Falwell as your descriptor for Christians.<br /><br />Counterlight writes,<br /><i>I notice in my discussions with atheists that they try to demonstrate that I don’t need God, that there are plenty of things out there that can take His place. </i> <br /><br />Certainly I have been around you all long enough for you to realize there are atheists who are not angry, are not invested in trying to turn you a different way, and not trying to set science and religion up as opposite poles of a common endeavor.<br /><br />For every angry atheist that tries to show you why religion is a lie, I can probably show you a dozen Christianists who claim that atheists are incapable of moral behavior. And who instantly assume that I am simply uneducated about religion and if they just teach me, I'll "get it".<br /><br />Yet modern neuroscience makes it clear that we are "wired" for moral behavior... and not just us but many other mammals too.<br /><br />modern neuroscience also shows us that our brains may be "wired" for religion. So why is it surprising that some are not?<br /><br />Any more surprising than it is that some are wired for same-sexuality?<br /><br />BUt most scientists I know are really indifferent to religion. A few make it a crusade; but i suspect most virulently anti-religion people are those whom religion has hurt the most.<br /><br /><br />Incidentally, at Ruben Diaz's anti-gay rally yesterday, one of the tapes reveals a pastor saying,<br /><br />"Those who practice such things are worthy to death." <br /><br />LIttle wonder that people leave religion.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-1594845077673544292011-05-15T19:13:08.745-04:002011-05-15T19:13:08.745-04:00Now, I've finally READ your post, Doug! ;-)
R...Now, I've finally READ your post, Doug! ;-)<br /><br /><i>Religion is as flawed, conflicted, confused, and messy as the people who make it, and that’s what makes it so marvelous and so awful.</i><br /><br />Great passage---I find especially applicable to the <i>Eucharist</i>. AntiTheists in general (and the Angry Dyke I made mention of in particular---I'll get y'all a link to her at the bottom) LOVE to mock catholic Xty for the Eucharist: cannibalism, vampirism, "magically becomes Jesus's actual flesh"!<br /><br />I always want to respond, YES, that's what makes it So Great! Cannibalism, Vampirism, Magic!!! [Ever read a recent bestseller/top TV show or movie? Notice how they feature ALL of these things?]<br /><br />I love my catholic (Anglican) Christianity not in SPITE of its irrationality, but BECAUSE of it! :-D<br /><br />...which, ironically, sends me back to Angry Dyke's "neurology". I think there probably IS something different between . . . NOT the Theistic vs Atheistic brain. But the Certitude Brain and the Delicious Doubt Brain. The Fundie Brain (my term) vs the "Woo-Woo" Brain (theirs).<br /><br />It's not about God/god/"god".<br /><br />It's about mechanical "Fact A fits into Fact B" certitude, vs "Let's get high, take our clothes off and dance! Or, failing that, let's have Mass and eat God. Or sumthin' like that. Possibly" doubt.<br /><br />[Angry Dyke will tell us, that we dancing doubters, therefore, are Not Permitted to roll our eyes at the Mormons. Whereas I look at BOTH Mormons and Angry AntiTheists, and roll my eyes.]<br /><br />So, those w/ Fundy/Certitude brains, are probably going to stay that way (though they may flip-flop BETWEEN absolutely antithetical Fundy Certitudes!)<br /><br />I'll just keep on prayin' that, come that <i>Great Dancing Day</i>, they'll finally {unclench their sphincters and} kick up their heels!<br /><br />Here's the link (to Angry Dyke): http://www.alternet.org/belief/150885/are_all_religions_equally_crazy?page=entireJCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-75659682157219156112011-05-15T07:26:59.069-04:002011-05-15T07:26:59.069-04:00JCF,
I think that South Park episode would prove y...JCF,<br />I think that South Park episode would prove your point that atheists can be every bit as fanatical as their religious antagonists, that religious warfare would still be around even if religion disappeared. Southern atheists are especially ferocious, as ferocious as the hard-shell fundamentalists they always argue with.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-44586913770687479152011-05-15T07:22:13.207-04:002011-05-15T07:22:13.207-04:00I'm not sure why people remain convinced that ...I'm not sure why people remain convinced that they can argue anyone into anything. I've never seen that happen. I've never seen anyone have any kind of a conversion experience to anything because they were bested in an argument. Usually the tongue-tied loser retreats into sullen silence while the winner does a little superior dance. The loser always ends up clinging to their original position all the more passionately with a new level of resentment.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-36796489636231456592011-05-14T23:00:41.985-04:002011-05-14T23:00:41.985-04:00Every time I want to say something coherent re ath...Every time I want to say something coherent re atheism, I just lose all interest.<br /><br />[I'm trying]<br /><br />I was reading a Yet Another Passionate A(nti)theist, and the author was going on (in response to someone seemingly defending...New Age-y stuff!) about how the commenter wasn't properly versed in <i>neurology</i> to comment...<br /><br />...and then I looked back up the piece: about how the author and <i>wife</i> was in Temple Square, Salt Lake City, and was choking on Teh Mormon Krazy.<br /><br /><i>Wife.</i><br /><br />The author was <i>female</i>.<br /><br />Now hey, I'm as sympathetic to an Angry Dyke as anyone can be (esp. re the Mormons! :-X), but while you're hammering away re "neurology", are we supposed to overlook the fact that SO MANY Angry AntiTheists are LGBT?<br /><br />AS IF the fact that Organized Religion, overwhelmingly, is homophobic/transphobic, and then *behold* LGBTs repay in kind? <br /><br />Angry Dyke, check your OWN "neurology"!<br /><br />...or, the fact that So Much Religion SUCKS, is because HUMANS suck: God/The Conscious Universe (per the New Age-r)/Higher Power of Whatever-Understanding had nuthin' to do w/ it!<br /><br />***<br /><br />Yes, the Antitheists (of any sexuality) have their arguments. Their probabilities, their facts, their evidence (or my theistic lack of).<br /><br />Their arguments just don't interest me. <br /><br />And the fact that they can't understand that their arguments have to be <i>interesting</i>, as well as "fact-based", just shows we don't have much to talk about.JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2343439372519556254.post-68363220911236539522011-05-14T12:32:51.003-04:002011-05-14T12:32:51.003-04:00Thank you this is an excellent post.
I too find t...Thank you this is an excellent post.<br /><br />I too find the cognitive dissonance argument interesting. Like other atheist arguments it helps us identify errors. Two that spring to mind are 'this proves God is great and by extension proves my tribe is great' and 'Jesus failed and so we're proud of being failures too' (this one I've encountered in some Christian community projects). It helps us see things clearly, so I feel no need to disprove it!Chris Sissonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17426078801713097932noreply@blogger.com