Perhaps not.
A recent Human Rights Campaign poll of self-identified Christians finds that majorities, and even substantial majorities, support both civil rights and marriage rights for LGBTs.
Keep in mind that this is a poll with a vested interest (as if all the others are not), but this does make ya think.
Tip of the beret to JoeMyGod, who may not like Christians, but he is scrupulously fair to them.
UPDATE:
Before we put all Christians, and all Texans, into the same homophobic category, check this out. I've been to Farmer's Branch many times, and it is no liberal paradise, and yet ...
UPDATE:
Before we put all Christians, and all Texans, into the same homophobic category, check this out. I've been to Farmer's Branch many times, and it is no liberal paradise, and yet ...
I notice that Joe's always hostile commenters remain unconvinced, but kudos to him for posting this.
ReplyDeleteMost of the chorus over at JMG are pretty ¨Christine Hostile¨ but the comments are a great source of LGBTI reaction-- I really like reading what people (like me) think as I´ve been far away for quite awhile -- most of the really ugly comments are a result of the most recent ¨activities¨ directed against LGBTI people (by bigots, religious or not)...I think most LGBTI people feel persecuted and scapegoated by ¨Church¨ and don´t have much use for the Archbishop of Caterbury or the Popes irresponsible versions of reality...it´s hard to have a positive feeling about Christian Love when one observes the nonsense that spews out of the mouths (or is on the hate crime receiving end) of +Orombi/Uganda, +Okoh/Nigeria and/or good-olde punishing +Drexel Gomez of Jamaica/West Indies...I understand the ¨fedupness¨ with the hypocrisy real well.
ReplyDeletesorry above:
ReplyDelete¨Christian Hostile¨ (not Christine, as in Jorgenson?)
And, er, what have opinion polls got to do with anything? Fifty years ago that majority would have said precisely the opposite.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, the majority would have said the opposite. I was there. I remember.
ReplyDeleteAnd now they are changing their minds after they looked up from their Bibles and saw the Image of God shining out in the faces of their gay children, their gay relatives, their gay friends, and their gay colleagues.
The Holy Spirit lives, and not just in the pages of a Bronze Age book, but in the hearts of men and women, where She has always lived.
"Praised, hallowed, and adored be Jesus Christ in His most glorious throne in heaven, in the most holy sacrament of the altar, and in the hearts of all of His faithful people."
Your praise of the ...hallowed, and adored be Jesus Christ in His most glorious throne in heaven, in the most holy sacrament of the altar, and in the hearts of all of His faithful people."
ReplyDeleteMakes me ill! It is people like you who feel we have to keep beliving in a book like the Bible and those who claim to be "good Christians" and be like them and trust that they are "good at heart" when in truth ythey do hate us and want us dead! The polls are all lies since I find it hard to accept that if the vast majority of Americans and Christians say we should have equal rights, why then do we lose EVERY BLOODY TIME if we are on a balot fo gay rights?
So, I suppose in your mind, there is absolutely no difference between Quakers and The Assemblies of God; between Roman Catholics and the UCC, between the Russian Orthodox and the Lutheran Church ELCA, The Mormons and The Episcopal Church, Christian Scientists and Seventh Day Adventists. There's no real difference between, say, Bishop Gene Robinson and Peter Fischer, or between Desmond Tutu and Pope Benedict, or between Davis Maciyalla and Maggie Gallagher. I suppose you see no difference between Christina Dominionism and Liberation Theology? They're all the same?
ReplyDeleteThink carefully as you're painting more than a billion people with the same broad brush; most of whom are not your enemies, and some of them are just as gay and militant as you are, and probably more so (see Davis Maciyalla).
Cut some slack to all those people who worked and sweated and died so that you could complain about us always losing elections on my blog! Do you really imagine that nothing has changed at all since the days of Joe McCarthy? Give a break to poor Frank Kameny who defied those witch-hunts in the 1950s! McCarthy is dead, and old Frank is still very much around and kicking the doors in for us, same as he was doing 60 years ago! Ask him if nothing has changed.
That anyone's rights should be up for a vote is a scandal, but does that mean that all is lost? Harvey Milk didn't think so, and he won a few elections, as I recall. Maybe you could ask Barney Frank about losing elections (hasn't lost one yet, the big poof).
A lot of people for many years worked and fought hard for what we have today. Some of them, including Harvey, died for the rest of us. Give them some credit!
It wasn't all for nothing. I was there. I saw and lived out those changes in my 53 years. Things are light-years different from what they were in the 1970s when I came out.
And if you really really hate reading my blog, then don't read it.
Why don't you ask Moderate Fundamentalist up there if all Christians are on the same page? Ask him what he thinks of Bishop Robinson or of Bishop Mary Glasspool. I'll bet he hardly recognizes them as human, let alone Christian.
ReplyDeleteNameing people who have fought or who fight for gay rights or agree with them, saying things have changed for the better (which I know they have) and saying all christians are not bad, does not change the fact that after 27 years with the same person, I can not marry him OR even be considered legaly conected to him! And it is ONLY a Christian based argument that prevents us from having the same rights as straights! They use the Bible and their so called GOD to spread hate and keep us from being equal! I do not say people have not worked hard or that things have not improved (I am slightly older than you), but I am saying that I see things reversing! I see the Republicans and Christian right makeing new laws against us! I see them spreading their hate to Africa where we can be killed just for being Gay! My "husband" likes your art (I am an artist) and he sent me here to see your work. That is why I am here but your politics and polianna veiws are why I have made my comments!
ReplyDeleteTristan, stereotyping is stereotyping. Your stereotyping of Christians is not really any different than the homophobes' stereotyping of homosexuals. The hatemongers have succeeded in turining you into their own bigotted mirror image. Very sad, actually.
ReplyDeleteI have no doubt that you have experienced hatred and discrimination done in the name of religion. It scarcely justifies you launching a stream of vitriol in which you effectively accuse a partnered gay man of being a homophobe.
If you'd consider setting aside your hysterics for a moment, you might discover that there are lots of Christians - perhaps even a majority - who not only support your right to live your life and to marry the person you love.
But if you already have so many allies in the struggle for LGBTQ equality that you can afford to drive them away, I guess that's your perogative.
Malcolm, I love it when anyone who does not kiss the feet of Christians is called a bigot and "just as bad" as thsoe who sterotype gays. That is such a false argument, it is the same as saying that I and others who are not Christian should hold our selves to the standards Christians are supposed to hold them selves to, but never do! I do not have to accept the lies and turn the other cheek! I was a Christian or 50 years of my life, I studied for the ministry and took courses that taught me about the Bible and church history(not dogma, facts). I have seen how thousands of Christians spread lies and hate...so, I reject and condemn that religion! I am NOT attacking you or anyone as an individual and I did not say doug was homophobic, just that he follows a religion that on the whole IS!
ReplyDelete"Love one another as I have love you." That's SO homophobic!
ReplyDelete"Love one another as I have love you" and many other things supposedly said by Jesus is a lovely idea, but I have never met a Christian who does that! They love other Christians (in their denomination) and everyone else be damned!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"Love one another as I have love you" and many other things supposedly said by Jesus is a lovely idea, but I have never met a Christian who does that!
ReplyDeletePerfectly? Of course not.
Are you going to argue, Tristan, that you've met ANY human being who does?
Because then you must know All Angels.
I know only sinful human beings. Who try, and fail. But keep trying. Looking at/living by the model of the Prince of Peace helps... [Of course, all too few Christians do that. And no Christianists (GeeZus-worshippers. Who never carry a cross, but only crucify others. Esp. queers like us.)]
I'm a gay, married Californian atheist, married to a devout Christian. Episcopalian flavor, trinitarian, sacramentalist, and thurble-swinger.
ReplyDeleteThat fact has certainly made me realize the....breadth of Christians.
but please, let us remember, Tristan has been deeply hurt. He hears the rejection from his upbringing and the right-wing domination of the media. It's hardly surprising that he hits out.
There are Tristans everywhere, and his pain and frustration should be a goad to you good folks, and a reminder, that Tristans are always listening when you speak. And you need to reach out to the Tristans to find common ground and help.
I really don't care whether you believe in Jesus, or Buddha or anyone else, but - and this is very important - if you are going to claim to be brighter and more enlightened than others, please, please make an effort to spell correctly.
ReplyDeleteA slip-up here and there, for example "it's" for "its," is perfectly fine and commonplace, but writing in a manner that indicates no native knowledge of the language does not help your case.
Claiming humanism, rationalism and realism include accepting linguistic rules. It is very hard to take you seriously, when your writing is the equivalent of a drunkenly-slurred tirade.
Mark, breaking my promise not to comment here again, I have to say people who judge and get upset and call names for MISPELLING are IDIOTS! First, I am very dislexic, second, I am a terrible typer and third, I type even worse when angry! SO, if your main problem with me is my "Typing like a drunken sailor" and spelling badly, then you are a very shallow human!
ReplyDeleteIn fairness to Tristan, I have to proofread just about everything I post, and I still miss typos.
ReplyDeleteAs character defects go, bad spelling is not very high on my list, especially since I have continuing problems with doubled consonants and punctuation among other things.
Nonsense. To both you and Tristan.
ReplyDeleteIf you are going to storm in, behaving like a petulant adolescent claiming to have truth that others are far too IDIOTIC to see, then you have set yourself up for what I gave him.
How is Tristan any different from the Fundamentalists that have made his, and my and your lives so difficult? Violence, anger, my-way-or-the-highway, agree-or-you're-an-idiot thinking and speech.
How are people like that going to make the world any better, or, for that matter, any different at all for the human race?
And for Tristan, who may or may not wish to read the words of an IDIOT -
A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist, and that includes atheists.
"Ooooh! You Christians have made the world soooo terrible! Poor me! Poor me!" Well, you helped, Tristan me lad, because you pour out just as much hate and cruelty as the ones who've hurt you!
You do have a faith, you know, and it's the same as the fundies: Fear. I hear you and all these alleged "humanists" going on and on about a non-theistic "humanism" that posits a reality just as personal and capricious as the Old Testament God. You aren't humanists! Humanists want to improve and create a better humanity, while you, like all fundamentalists, want everyone remade in your terrified, small, and vicious image.
I don't care if you believe in God or not. I don't believe in the big guru in the sky that most liberal Christians seem to believe in. Just stop and look at your own hypocrisy for a moment. You come here, to people who would, in the ordinary course, reach out to you, hold you dear, and protect you from the alleged "christians" who have harmed and would harm you, screaming "idiot" and "invisible friend" then get violently angry when they are offended - yet it is CHRISTIANS who are the problem?
Maybe it's just angry, small-minded, self-centered people who can't transcend their own pain who are the problem Tristan - ya think?
I've heard all these arguments before, back when it was Anton LaVey instead of Brian Cox, and it was Satanism instead of Humanism. It's still fundamentalism, it's still fatalism and it's still simply fear.
Appologies to our host for posting yet again...Mark, I am NOT an athiest, I am not funadmentalist in any sense and I NEVER claimed to have a truth you don't! Others have interpreted my oppinions and comments as such, but if you read what I said and not what you THINK I said, you will see I NEVER say I am better than you or have the "answer" to anything! I state my anger and frustration at Christianity! ALL of what your latest diatribe said was from within YOU and NOT from what I said at all! It is always hypocracy and bigotry when someone says something against those who practice hypocracy and bigotry...I do not follow their rules and neither do they! But I don't claim to be chosen by God and saved etc, so I DON'T HAVE to follow their rules! Oh, and if I mispelled ot mistyped anything, TOUGH! It proves nothing about me, as you know NOTHING about me!
ReplyDelete