Tuesday, June 14, 2011

I Agree

'Piskies, we're too nice.

(Hat tip to JoeMyGod again)


Leonard said...

Not all of us.

Counterlight said...


toujoursdan said...

I don't think that's entirely fair. We have a media who thrives on controversy and has a vested interest in caging the debate as radical anti-gay Christians vs. radical gays. That creates energy and viewership.

People are going to tune into Fred Phelps or Tony Perkins for the cage match. They are guaranteed ratings for CNN, etc.

They aren't going to tune into Bishop Larry Provenzano or Mark Sisk. Those people aren't crazy. They aren't radical. They aren't extreme. They believe in loving their enemies and giving them aid when they need it, as Christ commands.

I want us to be nice, even if we tarred by the wrong bush. I don't want to become the flip side of them. I know the media will ignore us, but it doesn't mean that most people in the community will.

Dan said it in the clip. His own mother affirms him. It's through the efforts of mainline congregations that so many people with no attachment to gay people care about our issues.

We have blue hair old ladies in my parish with heterosexual kids who are as savvy about gay issues as they come. They got that through exposure to gay people in church. We're doing something right.

So I respect Dan, but disagree with him.

JCF said...

[Dan! As in ToujoursDan! Good to see you, you hunk you! ;-)]

My message to the secular LGBTs who say "Why won't Progressive Christians SPEAK OUT LOUDER????"

Um...maybe you could freakin' join us, to increase the volume?

Don't give me the "But I don't believe in God!" canard. If Our Friend IT can join TEC, *you* can, too (or the UCC or MCC or ELCA, if that's more your schtick).

Counterlight said...

I'm guessing that Dan Savage has in mind the large mass of gay-sympathetic Roman Catholics (there really are a whole lot of them) who manage to compartmentalize their personal beliefs apart from their loyalty to the Church as an institution. On a personal level, they can be very gay friendly, but are reluctant to confront Father, even when he is spouting poison from the pulpit.
I suspect that there may be a similar situation in the evangelical and fundamentalist churches where Pastor's power can be even more absolute than Father's. I'd bet that there are a lot of people out there in the pews with gay children or friends who just don't want to rock the boat and confront Pastor.

I agree with Toujoursdan that the right has a media advantage, not only in Fox News and all the evangelical networks, but also in being such a non-stop freak show. I certainly agree that Bryan Fischer or Maggie Gallagher going off on completely paranoid rants makes for much better teevee than +Gene Robinson being very brave or ++Desmond Tutu being so reasonable and generous. I also agree that we should not become twin to the right.
If I have any criticism of Dan Savage, it's of his failure to appreciate the struggles going on over LGBT freedom and dignity within the churches. Some people (some of them hetero) are fighting very brave and lonely fights right there in the camp of the "enemy," in the Roman Catholic Church, in the Southern Baptist Convention, and even among the Mormons. Those people should be supported and encouraged, not pilloried, for deciding to stay within their traditions, staking a claim upon them, and struggling bravely to change the institutional culture.

Tristan Alexander said...

Funny how it always comes down to "good Christians" who silently, quietly and privately "support" gay rights, or don't oppose us, being victims and needing defended. YOU all get angry and vocal in defense of your own kind but when WE get vocal and angry over the bad treatment a majority of Christians perpetrate or allow towards gays mostly in the name of your God, WE are overreacting and wrong! You expect us to be silent and see the invisible support but one criticism of how Christians behave and we get smacked down, called names and told we need to turn the other cheek!

Counterlight said...

So why are you bashing us, who are supposed to be on YOUR side? Make that OUR side. We've gotten the shit knocked out of us (including black eyes, lost teeth, broken bones, and lost lives), just as much as everyone else who's gay or lesbian or bi or trans has. We've been through the suicide attempts, the bashings, the thousand and one humiliations just as much as you have.

Why don't you direct that rage at the same people we're fighting against, ie. Wildman, Gallagher, Santorum, Papa Nazi and all of his closeted minions, all the hostile and hateful fundamentalists, extreme Calvinists, Catholic traditionalists, Christian Dominionists, etc., etc., etc.?

Or are we all still the same to you from Desmond Tutu and the Quakers to Fred Phelps and the Mormons; no distinctions at all? Christians is Christians just like injuns is injuns and the only good ones is dead ones, right?

Tristan Alexander said...

Once again, you put words in my mouth and interpret my words how you want. I know that all those who call themself Christian are not the same. I just say the majority are the ones who spread lies and hate. If you are NOT one of them, then what I say against Christianity is NOT about you is it?

But again, make christians the victims and distract everyone from the real issue!

Sorry, I know I should just never post any comments here.